Airlines In The Philippines III

[airline_builder]

Arianespace wrote

It seems they are already bridging the gap based on our discussions above

Reconfiguring and AOGs are actually not what we can call "bridging the gap" I must say.

The Wamos is 1:1
The Garuda is again 1:1

so where is the bridge there? bringing in the previous 330s and experiencing the exact same shortages on fleet is not bridging the gap.

At any rate if anyone is interested to know: 5J is doing due diligence on Air Swift for Total Buy-Out. Talk about a well-managed and lead company, they sure have currency to spare for expansive endeavors.

............................and while PAL is busy on social media

[xzibit31]

airline_builder wrote

Arianespace wrote

It seems they are already bridging the gap based on our discussions above

Reconfiguring and AOGs are actually not what we can call "bridging the gap" I must say.

The Wamos is 1:1
The Garuda is again 1:1

so where is the bridge there? bringing in the previous 330s and experiencing the exact same shortages on fleet is not bridging the gap.

At any rate if anyone is interested to know: 5J is doing due diligence on Air Swift for Total Buy-Out. Talk about a well-managed and lead company, they sure have currency to spare for expansive endeavors.

............................and while PAL is busy on social media

and this is why I am most disappointed with PR.  

their style of business is what us bisaya's call as "inato" (emphasis on the letter o).

[Arianespace]

This Hawaiian Air video confirms the very aggressive sales pitch on widebody pricing by Boeing to PAL, playing Airbus in its own game. Similar arguments too. According to the mole, 12-16 frames of B787 are offered for a certain price less than the published price tag. The figure appears to be similar to the 77w fleet. Probably where the Boeing drivers are heading.

https://youtu.be/6am7ks3O-Es?t=325

[Solblanc]

Arianespace wrote

This Hawaiian Air video confirms the very aggressive sales pitch on widebody pricing by Boeing to PAL, playing Airbus in its own game. Similar arguments too. According to the mole, 12-16 frames of B787 are offered for a certain price less than the published price tag. The figure appears to be similar to the 77w fleet. Probably where the Boeing drivers are heading.

https://youtu.be/6am7ks3O-Es?t=325

Hawaiian placed that order in 2018. Even when taking into account the pandemic, six years is a very long time to wait for a plane. Original delivery was for 2021, which was delayed, but they were hoping for it for recovery by 2023, which didn’t happen, and now they’re getting a few.

Boeing better offer some proper delivery spots as the sales teams do their work. There is a very real danger that PAL will turn into an all-Airbus airline when the Neo is tried and tested for current needs. And I’m sure Airbus would also pounce on this opportunity to try to shut Boeing out of the Philippine market altogether.

Btw, when will PAL pull the trigger? Cebpac may announce at farnborough; is PAL likely to announce there as well to steal some of their thunder?

[Evodesire]

It is very unlikely that PAL will turn to an all-Airbus fleet due to polical reasons. PAL knows that.

But PAL has to decide soon. Their lack of aircraft is basically whats killing them now. And they have to change their ballgame.

[JNC03]

If you want more US slots you know what to do

Specially for a flag carrier of a country apigned with the west

[Solblanc]

JNC03 wrote

If you want more US slots you know what to do

Specially for a flag carrier of a country apigned with the west

Like that time they picked the 77Ws over the A346 and we got category 2 anyway, with the first arrivals unable to fly anywhere in the US forcing RSA to ironically buy used A343s from Iberia to be able to keep flying to the west coast.

If they just got the a346 from the start with a faster delivery time, they would’ve been able to sail through that. Even though it wasn’t a better plane, it would’ve been able to fly to the US.

They can always get 737s if they’re worried.

[Evodesire]

Solblanc wrote

JNC03 wrote

If you want more US slots you know what to do

Specially for a flag carrier of a country apigned with the west

Like that time they picked the 77Ws over the A346 and we got category 2 anyway, with the first arrivals unable to fly anywhere in the US forcing RSA to ironically buy used A343s from Iberia to be able to keep flying to the west coast.

If they just got the a346 from the start with a faster delivery time, they would’ve been able to sail through that. Even though it wasn’t a better plane, it would’ve been able to fly to the US.

They can always get 737s if they’re worried.

Solblanc wrote

JNC03 wrote

If you want more US slots you know what to do

Specially for a flag carrier of a country apigned with the west

 

If they just got the a346 from the start with a faster delivery time, they would’ve been able to sail through that. Even though it wasn’t a better plane, it would’ve been able to fly to the US.

They can always get 737s if they’re worried.

I guess getting back to cat 1 and have 77Ws in the fleet was better than going for an all-Airbus fleet with the A346 as 747 replacements. Besides, even if we used the A346, we still had no choice but to get back to cat 1 because we needed to add frequencies, capacity, and of course, destinations.

[Arianespace]

Getting the 77w has more to do with the Eximbank deposits for undelivered 744s. PAL ordered 12 and took only 4. Boeing refused to return deposits to PAL. That is how tough they are in their heyday. Not very much now. Had it been returned, we should have the A346, an all Airbus fleet.

They would still be powered by different engine manufacturer though. RR for 346 and CFM for 330.

[Solblanc]

Arianespace wrote

Getting the 77w has more to do with the Eximbank deposits for undelivered 744s. PAL ordered 12 and took only 4. Boeing refused to return deposits to PAL. That is how tough they are in their heyday. Not very much now. Had it been returned, we should have the A346, an all Airbus fleet.

They would still be powered by different engine manufacturer though. RR for 346 and CFM for 330.

I remember in the earlier narrowbody order of 737NG vs A320, Boeing refused to transfer the deposits for the 737. But at the same time, PAL could have gone for fewer A346s and used the deposits on 787s instead. Would have been nice for them to jump from their 212t A330s to the 787.

If they were really wild, they could’ve gone for the 747-8. Beautiful plane, but sadly the era of 4 engines was just ending.

[Arianespace]

RSA did consider that big bird in 2012 together with the 787, 6 748s and 12 789s. But it was very clear then that twins are the future across the big pond. So they ordered more 77w, even if it was already proven they were inadequate during winter months, and despite introduction of pips improvements. Truly, twin efficiency  beats the quad by a wide margin, unless you start introducing more J seats like LH did. Could have worked for PAL though.

[Evodesire]

Is there also a possibility that PAL may order A330neos for GAP, or will they remain as an all-narrowbody operator?

[airline_builder]

If PAL eventually would settle for flexibility of Boeing over the perks Airbus will be baiting the executives again, then it would be best for initial of 8 789s and 8 7810s with option for 4 (2 of each) just like the original 20 A330ceos order way back. It will be the best interchangeable operational requirement when needed.

If they decide for 330neos then yes 20 units.

And with reference to PAL "might still the thunder of 5J" must they make an order at the FAS, hmmm that will never be a scene stealer. 20 units vs 70 jets (with options perhaps) the latter being way more significant so PAL will be just one of those orders....

[Arianespace]

All the 878x were meant for GAP remember? They were 414 seaters then for Middle East operations. And yes, they flew under GAP before to DXB. The premium route (Oz, JP, HNL) was supposed to be service by B787s until Boeing couldn't commit on early delivery schedule prompting them to exercise half of the Airbus options.

[airline_builder]

Arianespace wrote

All the 878x were meant for GAP remember? They were 414 seaters then for Middle East operations. The premium route was supposed to be service by B787s until Boeing couldn't commit on early delivery schedule prompting them to exercise half of the Airbus options.

yes but this time around for a true fleet flexibility that is acceptable to be dispatched anywhere and anytime internationally - PAL needs to make their products standard/ uniform and refrain itself from categorizing MIDEAST flights just give them a transport from A to B with bare minimums, otherwise regardless of how new the fleet will be in the future if they maintain that dual practice then it will not make any difference.

[Arianespace]

That is where the problem lies. Because the 878X were meant for Middle East operations, like Cebu Pacific. After divorce they were converted to tri-class. Similarly, the 321ceo was meant for GAP fleet upgrade but ended up taking only 4 of them. That's why they are bare aircraft because it was not meant to be mainline. Now they become mainline.

[AB350]

A mix of A350 for Ultra long-haul and B787 for long-haul to medium haul would be a good fit for PAL.

Speaking of B737 if GAP transition back to the B737 will they consider the B737-10 as replacement for the A321-200 in the future? And what configuration will they be Single-class or Duel-class?

[Evodesire]

airline_builder wrote

If PAL eventually would settle for flexibility of Boeing over the perks Airbus will be baiting the executives again, then it would be best for initial of 8 789s and 8 7810s with option for 4 (2 of each) just like the original 20 A330ceos order way back. It will be the best interchangeable operational requirement when needed.

If they decide for 330neos then yes 20 units.

And with reference to PAL "might still the thunder of 5J" must they make an order at the FAS, hmmm that will never be a scene stealer. 20 units vs 70 jets (with options perhaps) the latter being way more significant so PAL will be just one of those orders....

What PAL needs to do is to have a clear plan from now until 2035. Up to now, it seems like they continue to live one day at a time, basing their future plans on what other airlines do instead of changing the game towards their favor.

If they want to "steal the thunder" from Cebu Pacific, then they must first change the way the whole airline is being managed. The first is for the Tans to stop sticking their noses in too much, which is quite impossible for now. Just let the management and executive team run the airline. Second, they need a massive fleet order, both for their long term and short-term plans. If they want to copy what other airlines are doing, then that's the way to go. Third, they have to move on from that 1998 financial crisis incident. My gosh, those born in 1998 now have children. Times have changed a lot! Move on!

[airline_builder]

Arianespace wrote

That is where the problem lies. Because the 878X were meant for Middle East operations, like Cebu Pacific. After divorce they were converted to tri-class. Similarly, the 321ceo was meant for GAP fleet upgrade but ended up taking only 4 of them. That's why they are bare aircraft because it was not meant to be mainline. Now they become mainline.

The post-divorce measure to converting those cargo-like passenger configurations to tri-class was the best thing PAL decided on to do.

And as emphasized here, PAL people must stop bowing out on the mindset that ME3 are hard to compete with and they are being subsidized.... those are given so what now? Co-exist and level up to what is affordable for PAL, the tri-class is quite decent to be honest and again PAL team should stop being stuck in the 70s 80s 90s early 2000s era that MIDEAST are solely OFW market - the travel orientation has gone global all the MIDEAST destinations of PAL specifically Dubai and Riyadh have become not just terminating points but hubs as well. This is why the standard product should be across the board.

People are travelers now regardless of social class and post sales passenger experience based are extremely important.

[airline_builder]

Evodesire wrote

airline_builder wrote

If PAL eventually would settle for flexibility of Boeing over the perks Airbus will be baiting the executives again, then it would be best for initial of 8 789s and 8 7810s with option for 4 (2 of each) just like the original 20 A330ceos order way back. It will be the best interchangeable operational requirement when needed.

If they decide for 330neos then yes 20 units.

And with reference to PAL "might still the thunder of 5J" must they make an order at the FAS, hmmm that will never be a scene stealer. 20 units vs 70 jets (with options perhaps) the latter being way more significant so PAL will be just one of those orders....

What PAL needs to do is to have a clear plan from now until 2035. Up to now, it seems like they continue to live one day at a time, basing their future plans on what other airlines do instead of changing the game towards their favor.

If they want to "steal the thunder" from Cebu Pacific, then they must first change the way the whole airline is being managed. The first is for the Tans to stop sticking their noses in too much, which is quite impossible for now. Just let the management and executive team run the airline. Second, they need a massive fleet order, both for their long term and short-term plans. If they want to copy what other airlines are doing, then that's the way to go. Third, they have to move on from that 1998 financial crisis incident. My gosh, those born in 1998 now have children. Times have changed a lot! Move on!

Everything you stated here are absolutely on point and I really pray that we have here in the forum a snooty PAL personnel who can actually relay all these things - and yes, an appeal to the TAN Family, just sit back relax and let the airline be managed by people who know the industry by heart and by profession.