Manila International Airport

[majaba]

This, by the way, was one rendering I saw of the possible layout :

https://vimeo.com/83208788

[Arianespace]

Welcome Richard!

There is still no official render on how the airport would look like, i.e. terminals and the like, other than it will have 4 parallel runways. So its not that or the version presented by San Miguel. Although I must admit they have one common similarity, the runways.

The way I understood it from DOTC, its gonna be build phase by phase considering the scale of the project. So NEDA's presentation makes sense if you connect the dot.

What is certain for sure is that when complete they will have 4 parallel runways. Phase 1 however will only have two runways not four and terminal capable of handling 60 mpa, depending upon the stretch of the $10B budget. That is way bigger than HKG and BKK main with design capacity at only 55 mpa and 45mpa. It will eventually grow up to 85mpa, probably in another terminal.

NEDA Director Secretary Arsenio M. Balisacan said it will take 20 years to complete the WHOLE project. True. And this is where the misquote started since it doesn't mean that we can't use the airport with only 2 runways. What is meant by that quote is that it will take 20 years to build the entire airport complex
that boast 4 runways.

I was shown the possibilities how, but they are pure speculations until the final layout comes out.

[Eurest]

The people from JAC Salcedo office have said that the master plan will only commence after the NEDA board has approved the new Manila airport and when Japanese construction firms/consortium have been awarded.

That said, the latest airport JICA and JAC have been involved in is Vietnam's Long Thanh International Airport.
JAC partnered with ADPI for the master plan, and coincidentally ADPI is a subsidiary of Aeroports de Paris. The same Aeroports de Paris that is handling the design of CRK's low cost carrier terminal.
So there is a strong chance of either ADP or ADPI to be tapped for the new Manila airport because of operations familiarity for both the PH gov't as well as JICA and JAC tpwards the French firms

 

It would be safe to assume with the lower cost of the new Manila airport, the terminal design will be far simpler, and not the extravagant W we see in Vietnam's, which no doubt adds to the 17-18B cost of Long Thanh despite only being designed to handle 100M pax

The mirrorred design, or the fact that the upper half is identical to the lower half, make the design suitable for building in phases.
The first 2 parallel runways would start where the current Sangley runway is already located, albeit with a slight re-orientation

Owing to the lower overall cost of 10-13B, the terminal design might look similar to say NGO, with a simple, straight-forward and efficient layout

 

[tigz]

Its good to see the lay-out and its a relief to be joining this forum as the other more popular is riddled with all junk and seemingly redundant issues. So first off, the report puts the site off Manila Bay, but then this illustration indicates otherwise, more or less a sparse flat land I assume to be in the outskirts of Manila?

[majaba]

Thanks Arianespace. Very informative, precise, professional. This is the place to be if you want to know in stead of speculate.
:-)

[majaba]

Same to you too Eurest. Very professional, clear in statement, reasonable and close to reality. I respect and joyfully feel comforted with both of your replies. Salamat Po !

[Solblanc]

Now, the big question, will there be a provision for a container port onsite? Passengers are only half the story; cargo is the other half.

The Japanese are the biggest investors in the PEZA sites in Calabarzon. They're moving a lot of manufacturing facilities from China to us. Port congestion has been a very real problem. A container port would be perfect in enhancing the synergy for cargo transport. Subic-Clark was supposed to have this amazing symbiotic relationship, and I still believe that they have the ingredients to be a true industrial heartland, but the Calabarzon region is giving it a run for its money.

[Arianespace]

Eurest wrote

The people from JAC Salcedo office have said that the master plan will only commence after the NEDA board has approved the new Manila airport and when Japanese construction firms/consortium have been awarded.

Actually the master plan is there already, the blueprint so to speak consisting of the propose horizontal structures which would probably look like Long Thanh airside wise.

What Salcedo probably meant was the vertical structure that would be put up in that airport because that requires extensive detailed engineering and budget-cost analysis followed by propose architectural designs.

That you cannot see just yet because they will be made after NEDA approval, which means budget for project is cleared for construction purposes. By 2017 we could see how will it look like with the approved budget, based on the design parameters of the blueprint prepared by JICA and the architectural minds of its contractor.

By the way, NEDA approves project only when they find sources of funds to start the ball rolling, which in this case is the propose ODA funds. Why propose, its because they haven't been signed yet. Also the thing about ODA is that it requires government counterpart fund, between 10 to 20% from GOP. ODA is the easier part, GOP funding is the hardest to get because it will be congress that allocates funds for it in the GAA. And in most cases, based on experience, there will always be delays associated with its release considering the limited resources GOP has. Once approved a multi-year obligation is prepared by DOTC for this purpose.

JAC partnered with ADPI for the master plan, and coincidentally ADPI is a subsidiary of Aeroports de Paris. The same Aeroports de Paris that is handling the design of CRK's low cost carrier terminal.

So there is a strong chance of either ADP or ADPI to be tapped for the new Manila airport because of operations familiarity for both the PH gov't as well as JICA and JAC towards the French firms

It could also be anyone from Marubini, Maida, Chiyoda, Mitsubishi, Taisei, Mitsui Takenaka, Obayashi, Sumitumo, or Nishimatsu. Considering that it is a Japanese ODA, only Japanese construction firms are allowed to bid on this project, with the likes of ADP as sub-contractor.
 

It would be safe to assume with the lower cost of the new Manila airport, the terminal design will be far simpler, and not the extravagant W we see in Vietnam's, which no doubt adds to the 17-18B cost of Long Thanh despite only being designed to handle 100M pax

The mirrorred design, or the fact that the upper half is identical to the lower half, make the design suitable for building in phases.

Indeed. The proposal calls for an integrated seamless transfer solution between domestic and international passengers. So I think one super structure connecting both is not far fetched. Actually we can also see a transfer hub taking shape.

The first 2 parallel runways would start where the current Sangley runway is already located, albeit with a slight re-orientation

On the contrary. Orientation is similar to LAX.

Owing to the lower overall cost of 10-13B, the terminal design might look similar to say NGO, with a simple, straight-forward and efficient layout

It could be more like an "H" type to me, with the first terminal "I" for domestic and the other "I" for international flights. Sounds good on paper. Efficient too! Although, again the illustration is for demonstration purposes only.

A similar feature to it mostly resembles PVG, with variable airport road access, depending on the final choice of the expressway. If we based it on the propose subway length, its gonna follow the peninsular cavite road all the way to CAVITEX. By the way that is the cheapest but longest route. Another plan is installing causeway to Pasay with exit at Pagcor City, the most expensive proposal, but is so far the best and efficient access with connections to NAIA expressway and Makati in 15 minutes. and another one crossing bacoor bay, with project cost somewhere in the middle.

tigz wrote

Its good to see the lay-out and its a relief to be joining this forum as the other more popular is riddled with all junk and seemingly redundant issues. So first off, the report puts the site off Manila Bay, but then this illustration indicates otherwise, more or less a sparse flat land I assume to be in the outskirts of Manila?

Must be the fellow from Pagadian. Welcome as well. The illustration that was presented was for layout purposes only. This is the airport project in Vietnam similarly funded by Japanese loan. And no, it is not surrounded by water.

Solblanc wrote

Now, the big question, will there be a provision for a container port onsite? Passengers are only half the story; cargo is the other half.

The Japanese are the biggest investors in the PEZA sites in Calabarzon. They're moving a lot of manufacturing facilities from China to us. Port congestion has been a very real problem. A container port would be perfect in enhancing the synergy for cargo transport. Subic-Clark was supposed to have this amazing symbiotic relationship, and I still believe that they have the ingredients to be a true industrial heartland, but the Calabarzon region is giving it a run for its money.

Already being addressed at the port of Batangas. Subic will return back to a military facility.

[Eurest]

Arianespace wrote

It could also be anyone from Marubini, Maida, Chiyoda, Mitsubishi, Taisei, Mitsui Takenaka, Obayashi, Sumitumo, or Nishimatsu. Considering that it is a Japanese ODA, only Japanese construction firms are allowed to bid on this project, with the likes of ADP as sub-contractor.
 

ADP is an airport management firm, with ADPI the design subsidiary so it's unlikely we'll see ADP as a sub contractor.
JAC, providing development consulting services, partnered with ADPI to design Long Thanh's master plan. NAA and Taisei are responsible for works and construction, Mitsubishi is the Goods supplier, and Vietnam's Southern Airports Corp is the local works & construction partner of Vietnam's new gateway

[Arianespace]

Correct. I was merely referring to it based on its mother company, it being its subsidiary. The airport management company is in fact ADPM.

Japanese companies listed above are all eligible to participate in the Manila airport project. I have seen their names floating around, singly or collectively with others. I don't know their participation with Vietnam but the companies mentioned above can very well make it as the contractor of the billion dollar airport.

[tigz]

My bad, still tring to orient my self on the pages, somehow my not so latest mobile gadget(once the pride of Canada)doesn't upload as fast as the other used to be exciting forum. Okay, now for the meat; this new NAIA project( will they still call this "Ninoy"?), seems like a goliath of infrastructure with causeways I suppose to put a straight path to Manila proper with rail and road component I presume. Now there's a mention of a subway? Seriously?, is this part of the whole public infra component to support the airport or mere projection. It is also interesting that the naval facility will transfer to subic and presumably the PAF elements will use Cubi Point or Subic Bay International Airport as it is called now. Does the billion dollar budget include the military relocation? To be honest I have my reservations as to what can be accomplished in 5 years and given the change of guard in Malacanang could mean another agenda and pool of opinionated cabinet officials. Remember when Roxas issued a memo and ultimatum for the transfer of genav to Cavite and the PAF wing to Lumbia?, it was suppose to ease up NAIA; never materialized. Next thing you know, a pile of paperwork for his analysis never moved in his desk until he moved on to another coveted position.

[Solblanc]

We can never predict the future. We can hope, but ultimately, this will all depend on the next president.

What can be accomplished in the near term is at least the extension of the Sangley Runway and having it share the MNL airport code with NAIA. A provisional terminal can take spillover traffic until such time as all the traffic will be relocated to Sangley. This was also technically the original plan with Clark, minus the airport code part.

Arianespace, you mentioned that the layout will be like LAX, and that two runways would be constructed first. The question is, which two runways would likely be the first ones to be constructed? It seems likely that the two southern runways could be built first, as opposed to having one northern runway and one southern runway, though the latter would be more efficient in the near term. Your thoughts?

[tigz]

I can't imagine the amount of reclamation to be undertaken on this project and I just noticed Sangley runway is deviated 1 degree from NAIA so I don't think the existing will be upgraded and reused, besides the fact that the bearing capacity of the current field maybe inferior. Its hard to say until we see a concept plan at least but I suppose the whole built-up military installation will be cleared and graded and this portion of the runway will most likely end up as servicing complex. When we did Cebu south reclamation project, it took two years of detailed engineering, JICA funded and worked with Japanese consultants for the duration of 2 years, and this is just typical reclamation with causeway as the first phase followed by the infill. An airport of this magnitude in reclaimed land could drag for 5 years just on horizontal works for the planning to detailed engineering alone. By the time contract documents are completed and tendered, inflation would probably have caught up. So will the government counterpart cough up? In my opinion a land option can be more fastracked but with the metro area sprawling fast, its equally challenging.

[Arianespace]

tigz wrote

To be honest I have my reservations as to what can be accomplished in 5 years and given the change of guard in Malacanang could mean another agenda and pool of opinionated cabinet officials. Remember when Roxas issued a memo and ultimatum for the transfer of genav to Cavite and the PAF wing to Lumbia?, it was suppose to ease up NAIA; never materialized. Next thing you know, a pile of paperwork for his analysis never moved in his desk until he moved on to another coveted position.

In fairness to Mar Roxas, he only controlled DOTC. That is the extent of his powers. Sangley airport in Cavite is a military facility under the stewardship of the AFP. On that score alone not much can be done whoever is sitting there. In short, his hands are tied, but people view it differently, perhaps missing the point of bureaucratic heirarchy.

A removal of vital military installation requires money for them to move out. The real score, Congress did not provide funds for them moving out to Basa, Cagayan de Oro, and Subic because all of it were diverted to defense due to more pressing national security issues. In fact, money for defense was not even enough.

You could argue that airport is more pressing than defense. Already, China is depriving us of almost $100 million dollars in foregone fishing revenues, another $500 million for oil exploration projects, and $1.2 billion in foregone revenue that would have been used to build that airport. And we are talking per annum here. That's the meat of why we sued them in the Hague.

So you see its not easy as you think it was.

Now there's a mention of a subway? Seriously?, is this part of the whole public infra component to support the airport or mere projection.

Yap. Its vital part of the project because when fully completed it will support 130 million passengers per annum (mppa), and the most efficient people mover is rail.

It is also interesting that the naval facility will transfer to subic and presumably the PAF elements will use Cubi Point or Subic Bay International Airport as it is called now. Does the billion dollar budget include the military relocation?

No. It doesn't. They are more likely to be funded separately by US dollars, not yen or peso.

[tigz]

You are correct regarding Roxas and the constraints of his position that's why I did express my astonishment upon seeing that memo regarding domestic genav. I don't know if that paper can be retrieved from the other thread but the timing of it all was peculiar, the presidents frustration with NAIA and the status of soon to be abandoned Lumbia. I suppose before that directive was given, arrangements with PAF have been made  and funds have been secured, and I mean its already in the bank to be released for clearing, demolition and mobilization contract. As for external defense, well what can I say, China didn't just come out of the blue. The past presidents should have prioritized the Armed Forces from the day Clark and Subic were decomissioned by the Americans; but that's long story and history. To cut the chase its no contest that country is paying heavy for short comings of the past. To date, effective operating capability of external air assets are nil, the S211s don't have a bite. The T-50s are in procurement and remains to be seen. Hopefully not another Sokol fiasco.

[Arianespace]

tigz wrote

You are correct regarding Roxas and the constraints of his position that's why I did express my astonishment upon seeing that memo regarding domestic genav. I don't know if that paper can be retrieved from the other thread but the timing of it all was peculiar, the presidents frustration with NAIA and the status of soon to be abandoned Lumbia. I suppose before that directive was given, arrangements with PAF have been made  and funds have been secured, and I mean its already in the bank to be released for clearing, demolition and mobilization contract.

To be honest about it, DOTC plans are actually screwed to begin with because of too many cooks. It really spoils the brew. There are plenty of vested interest intervening. But I won't dwell about that sensitive issue. I'm not even sure if the Sangley project will come to fruition because every one now is just looking at the mega project. Next week should be more interesting. Lets wait for that.

[tigz]

Who wouldn't want to be interested in tens of a billion dollar project. A lot of sub-contracts are in the making here and I can see a lot of consulting firms courting from the government side already or the other way around. Last time I was employed in this business, it was full of dirt you can imagine. The firm I was in employed a government public works head who was closer to the proponent agency. Naturally the bid was won. We were the local contract and the Japs treated us with weekly Friday karaoke!

[Eurest]

At the same time, Bautista announced PAL will be transferring its Manila-San Francisco (SFO) service from terminal 2 to terminal 1 starting today, December 8, 2015.

“This is to decongest terminal 2,” he said while stressing that the transfer is temporarily up until March 24, 2016, the end of the peak season.

T2 Int'l must really be full for PR to move SFO to T1
But this is only for arrivals and not departures?

Any news on the T2 expansion?

[tigz]

PAL is making it worst for passengers connecting to the provinces. I can see an easy 3hrs here by the time aircraft is on blocks and transit thru ICQ and shuttle, and this doesn't include your domestic check-in process. Whereas at T2, you can retrieve your baggage with the help of PALs porter and he can lead you thru baggage domestic transfer and pay customs if necessary( or give something if they scrutinized as their face would imply), and of you walk up to line  at domestic. My question now is will the airline give you lodging and meal vouchers because they arrived on time at the gate but either ICQ or shuttle cost your time?

[Arianespace]

Eurest wrote

T2 Int'l must really be full for PR to move SFO to T1
But this is only for arrivals and not departures?

Any news on the T2 expansion?

The transfer has more to do with CIQ processing.

Please take note that Terminal 2 wasn't built as international terminal. It was designed for domestic operations. Its integration in 1999 was an afterthought further constricting the open space. You could actually see that its international wing is very much smaller than the domestic wing.

There used to be no problem with having 2 B744 or 2 B777 arriving within a two hour block. Now its different. You will have 3 to 5 heavies arriving one after the other from North America.

Not only that. Before there was no early morning arrivals other than the Boeing.  Now you have to contend with arrivals from Tokyo, Bangkok, Singapore and Guangzhou, all within the two hour block.

As for T2 expansion, they are again bugged down by court intervention. We are a democratic country so we respect the court.