Airlines in the Philippines

[seven13]

I think they're doing quite well. I can sometimes see a fully booked DMM flight. Sometimes oversold by a little number (less than 10). For RUH, the least number of load I saw was 50%. I wonder how the yields are.

[Arianespace]

Evodesire wrote

How is the present load factor of PAL's RUH and DMM routes? Also, how is 2P doing against 5J in its DXB route? Heard that 2P is doing better.

Judging from the preliminary reports, its better as Ang said in ANC. They just add additional services to Dubai and Riyadh in March 30 and you know why that is.

chowpau wrote

The explanation my dad told me that night, he said it is because Saudia or the Saudi government is paying PAL premium for them not to fly to Saudi Arabia. He said they're paying USD $60 per passenger to PAL.

I've heard that rumor story before not just in Saudi Arabia but the entire middle east PAL operations as a whole and it was Jaime Bautista who told us its not true. Although if it were they would have like it. The rumor apparently stemmed from its refusal to fly there before despite its growing financial capacity.

The truth of the matter is maybe this fact, in code shared flights (e.i. Emirates) the operating airline usually pays the royalty of flying the route exclusively while the coded airline pays for half of the seats. It is when the seat intended for the operating airline seat is fully booked that they asked for the coded seat at a premium price to the coded airline and similarly in vice versa. Results of that arramgement is reflected in the GDS with higher ticket prices sold.

That is the most logical explanation to that rumor, and it applies only to code-share flights. The arrangement is very economical to PAL in many respect as the coded airline but it doesnt mean that they have zero sum cost at all.

But in strangest of circumstances PAL doesn't have such arrangement with SVA nor KAC. Mainly because it is more profitable to fly there even without code share such as what is happening now. Bautista laments if only they had more planes.

Although they did flew to Riyadh before with a Boeing 747 after suspending it in March 2, 2006 for commercial reasons and again on April 2,2011 due to Saudi aviation regulations which only allowed them to use three aircraft registries, a Boeing 747 and two Airbus 330s for flights to Riyadh, unlike now where almost all the new single class A330s (8 of them, RP-C8780,81,82/,83,84,85/,86,89) were registered to fly the three routes (Jeddah, Riyadh and Dammam) in KSA. Bautista could have liked the idea, economies of scale.

That was the idea and RSA implemented it.

[romantic_guy08]

Just noticed that it seems a lot of the new A333Es of PR are under utilized.

RP-C8786 and RP-C8789 hasn't flown, RP-C8762 also hasn't flown yet.... the rest are doing one or two domestic flights a day... and those that does RUH and DMM... AUH has been flown by RP-C8760 exclusively for the past 2 weeks or so...

By the rode the all-economy A333 and won't want to ride that for flights more than 2 hours... even if the flight I took was only an hour (MNL-CEB), sakit na ng likod ko... cramped...

[Evodesire]

Thats why I hope that rumor about the 757s is not true. Are those bi-class A330s fully utilized though? I guess they got too much mono-class A330s in that case.

[romantic_guy08]

Evodesire wrote

Thats why I hope that rumor about the 757s is not true. Are those bi-class A330s fully utilized though? I guess they got too much mono-class A330s in that case.

RP-C8760 has been exclusively doing the AUH run (after a week or so doing HKG)...

RP-C8762 hasn't flown yet after she was delivered..

[seven13]

Probably wireless ife and gsm systems are being installed on 62. Just my hunch.

Perhaps business class demand for AUH?

Since you guys mentioned here some A330s are on the ground most of the time, any announcement for DOH and JED? 5J has announced its KWI service already and it's already 2nd half of the year.

[Evodesire]

So the more it doesn't make sense to get those 757s when even brand new A330s are under utilized, and for some, have not flown at all. Did 8762 fail any accreditation test?

[seven13]

Guys, got some inside info that on 9JUL there will be an event regarding EY and PR tie-up. Did anybody here anything similar to this? With the details, I have yet to ask. :D

[romantic_guy08]

RP-C3441 (EC-IDF, c/n 474) another ex-Iberia A343 arrives today from Madrid...

[Evodesire]

So how many A340s does PAL have already?

[romantic_guy08]

Evodesire wrote

So how many A340s does PAL have already?

Eight are active now (incl. 3441) if I'm not mistaken

RP-C3432
RP-C3434
RP-C3435
RP-C3436
RP-C3437
RP-C3438
RP-C3439
RP-C3441

two (2) are stored at CRK

RP-C3430
RP-C3431

RP-C7472 is flying out today for retirement/storing to SFO and then to Pinal Park boneyard in Arizona...

[romantic_guy08]

Arianespace wrote

How is ETOPS relevant in flights to Australia and India? None. Hawaii, maybe yes.

Doesn't Australia follow/require EDTO rules?

[Arianespace]

Yes they do but not in waypoints to the Philippines. There are plenty of type C/D airports in between General Santos and Darwin.

By the way EDTO and ETOPS is the same animal. They all apply to twins, and all refer to extended diversioanry flight time with one operating engine. In the United States and the FAA they call it ExTended OPerationS, while in the EU and EASA they call it Extended Twin OperationS. For ICAO and the rest of the world, we call it Extended Diversion Time Operations. Australia and the Philippines happen to be in the rest of the world category.

[Arianespace]

I was told two of these birds will fly the Middle East. I am sensing one of them will fly Doha. The other could be Kuwait, or Muscat?

[seven13]

Arianespace wrote

I was told two of these birds will fly the Middle East. I am sensing one of them will fly Doha. The other could be Kuwait, or Muscat?

A340 to midEast? Why not fly the newer A330s? Does it need higher number of seats in front?

BTW, was just thinking, PR could reconfigure its A330 anytime to having higher number in front right? Is LTP certified to do it? And Would anyone know if a galley and additional LAV could easily be installed on the current A330HGW?

[romantic_guy08]

Arianespace wrote

Yes they do but not in waypoints to the Philippines. There are plenty of type C/D airports in between General Santos and Darwin.

By the way EDTO and ETOPS is the same animal. They all apply to twins, and all refer to extended diversioanry flight time with one operating engine. In the United States and the FAA they call it ExTended OPerationS, while in the EU and EASA they call it Extended Twin OperationS. For ICAO and the rest of the world, we call it Extended Diversion Time Operations. Australia and the Philippines happen to be in the rest of the world category.

Doesn't EDTO apply to all types of aircraft though? including 4-holers.

I read in a magazine before that Australian CAA is strictly enforcing EDTO even over land (i.e. Australian landmass/continent)...

[Arianespace]

seven13 wrote

A340 to midEast? Why not fly the newer A330s? Does it need higher number of seats in front?

BTW, was just thinking, PR could reconfigure its A330 anytime to having higher number in front right? Is LTP certified to do it? And Would anyone know if a galley and additional LAV could easily be installed on the current A330HGW?

I just happen to have the same question. The answer given was the A340 has lesser seat capacity than the A330 and RSA was very vocal about right-sizing equipment.

LTP is a certified and world class maintenance provider. I don't know how they can't do it.

romantic_guy08 wrote

Doesn't EDTO apply to all types of aircraft though? including 4-holers.

I read in a magazine before that Australian CAA is strictly enforcing EDTO even over land (i.e. Australian landmass/continent)...

No. They apply only to twins. That is why its more or less known as Extended TWIN OPerationS. And of course EDTO covers land masses where diversionary airport is not to be found in 60-90 minutes.

[romantic_guy08]

Arianespace wrote

romantic_guy08 wrote

Doesn't EDTO apply to all types of aircraft though? including 4-holers.

I read in a magazine before that Australian CAA is strictly enforcing EDTO even over land (i.e. Australian landmass/continent)...

No. They apply only to twins. That is why its more or less known as Extended TWIN OPerationS. And of course EDTO covers land masses where diversionary airport is not to be found in 60-90 minutes.

Says here in this CAAP 82-1 of CASA that EDTO applies for all aircraft including more than 2 engines (4.1.2).

http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/82_1.pdf

So while ETOPS only applies for 2-holers, EDTO certifies all types of aircraft for guidance...

[Arianespace]

Yes it does but no certification is required for that three or quad haulers because they already have 180 ETOPS rating. The A320/A321's however doesn't so the aircraft basically needs ETOPS certification to follow some flightpath where otherwise they would have flown airport that is basically within 60 minutes apart from the next, that is from General Santos to Darwin. Although like what I said it is not necessary in this case.



What I am explaining here is PAL's A320 and A321's going to Australia, and the non- ETOPS/EDCO rating of both is 60 minutes. Therefore, In the span of 60 minutes there should be a diversion airport available which is illustrated above. Like what I said ETOPS is not necessary between Gensan and Darwin but necessary when you fly Manila to Guam or Hawaii.



The A321 with ETOPS/EDCO previously shown basically meant that it is certified to fly no more than 180 minutes mandatory diversion airport rule, which means it can create a more direct flightpath than those unrated jets. On the other hand the DC10 or A340 doesn't require ETOPS because it is 180 rated already. Certification becomes necessity to both twin,tri and quad beyond 180 minutes, and this expanse usually covers the ocean or the arctic circle. Which means there is no EDTO overland in Australia. How far the coverage of 180 ETOPS is illustrated below.



And to be clear ETOPS also has tri's and quad's not just EDCO that aims to have more than 180 minutes.

Here is a pretty summary about how ETOPS became to be.

[seven13]

Arianespace wrote

I just happen to have the same question. The answer given was the A340 has lesser seat capacity than the A330 and RSA was very vocal about right-sizing equipment.

LTP is a certified and world class maintenance provider. I don't know how they can't do it.

So I guess RSA is positive in filling up the A340 to make it profitable to use such aircraft for that route.