Airlines In The Philippines III

[seven13]

Singapore, Philippines ink deal to boost air connectivity

[JNC03]

Philippine Airlines wants to return direct flights to Europe as early as 2025, but the flag carrier is seeking help from the government to make potential flight prices affordable.

“Maybe in a year’s time, you can see a PAL plane flying to France when we get the new Airbus A350. But we’re still looking into that. We had meetings for that. And we’re optimistic that it’s going to work,” PAL president and chief executive officer Stanley Ng said in an event staged at the Embassy of France in Manila.

Ng clarified that the reason why PAL and other Philippine-based carriers don’t offer direct flights to Europe is “because of competition” from other airlines that can offer cheaper prices.

“If the fares that you’re gonna offer will not make sense, it’s hard also to justify. That’s why I mentioned earlier [that we need] some help from both sides of the government,” he said.

This support could come in the form of lower charges, such as parking fees. Ng said that with the reduced costs, PAL could offer more competitively-priced flights to Europe.

https://www.rappler.com/business/philippine-airlines-restart-direct-europe-flights-2025/

[JNC03]

Flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) is exploring the possibility of launching direct flights to India to capture the emerging demand for connections to South Asia.

PAL president and chief operating officer Stanley Ng told reporters the airline is considering to mount Manila flights to India as soon as it gets out of the supply crunch that it is dealing with.

However, the airline has to overcome the supply crunch the aviation industry is facing right now. Ng said PAL can only launch direct flights to India once it recovers its grounded jets.

The supply crunch may also postpone its initial plan of resuming Manila trips to Sapporo, with Ng saying he is doubtful if PAL can get enough aircraft to offer new routes.

PAL is eyeing to resume Manila flights to Sapporo and Cebu trips to Osaka within the year, but this plan will depend on when the airline can retrieve parked aircraft and take in new units.

“We have to get the engines first for Sapporo and, hopefully, for India. [We want to get to] India because there is a market and it is growing,” Ng said.


https://www.philstar.com/business/2024/05/20/2356346/pal-sets-sights-india-flights

[Arianespace]

JNC03 wrote

Flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) is exploring the possibility of launching direct flights to India to capture the emerging demand for connections to South Asia.
https://www.philstar.com/business/2024/05/20/2356346/pal-sets-sights-india-flights

Which confirms what we already know. The LR were meant to bypass BKK. The India bound plane is the same plane used for OZ operations. Currently they have difficulty servicing the land down under with 2 neo operating planes. Its the same reason why you find 77w in SYD or 333 in PER

JNC03 wrote

Philippine Airlines wants to return direct flights to Europe as early as 2025, but the flag carrier is seeking help from the government to make potential flight prices affordable.

“Maybe in a year’s time, you can see a PAL plane flying to France when we get the new Airbus A350. But we’re still looking into that. We had meetings for that. And we’re optimistic that it’s going to work,” PAL president and chief executive officer Stanley Ng said in an event staged at the Embassy of France in Manila.

https://www.rappler.com/business/philippine-airlines-restart-direct-europe-flights-2025/

Perhaps Stan forgot that while French Gov't owns ADP, they are not the ones in control of the airport. "Subsidy". Thats the word. And EU frowns upon it. Yet Stan ask for the moon.

On the bright side, Stan statement could also mean "I'm flattered but no!". That's how politics work especially if your audience were French.

[Evodesire]

seven13 wrote

PR only has 3 triclass flying 8786, 8780 and 8789. 8781 and 8782 has been reconfigured to a denser ECY cabin, a hybrid bi-class and  tri-class.

Are 81 and 82 still equipped with IFEs? Or they now have the SMC configuration and seats?

[Solblanc]

Arianespace wrote

JNC03 wrote

Flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) is exploring the possibility of launching direct flights to India to capture the emerging demand for connections to South Asia.
https://www.philstar.com/business/2024/05/20/2356346/pal-sets-sights-india-flights

Which confirms what we already know. The LR were meant to bypass BKK. The India bound plane is the same plane used for OZ operations. Currently they have difficulty servicing the land down under with 2 neo operating planes. Its the same reason why you find 77w in SYD or 333 in PER

JNC03 wrote

Philippine Airlines wants to return direct flights to Europe as early as 2025, but the flag carrier is seeking help from the government to make potential flight prices affordable.

“Maybe in a year’s time, you can see a PAL plane flying to France when we get the new Airbus A350. But we’re still looking into that. We had meetings for that. And we’re optimistic that it’s going to work,” PAL president and chief executive officer Stanley Ng said in an event staged at the Embassy of France in Manila.

https://www.rappler.com/business/philippine-airlines-restart-direct-europe-flights-2025/

Perhaps Stan forgot that while French Gov't owns ADP, they are not the ones in control of the airport. "Subsidy". Thats the word. And EU frowns upon it. Yet Stan ask for the moon.

On the bright side, Stan statement could also mean "I'm flattered but no!". That's how politics work especially if your audience were French.

A nearby airport in the EU has been offering PAL several subsidies and incentives for more than a decade now. Traffic numbers aren’t bad. And they have slots. They were just never taken up

[Arianespace]

The last application PAL actually filed with EU airport AMS, FCO, CDG and FRA was made in 2013 with A343 at the time of RSA. Lucky for them, they never got the slots they wanted. In 2018 JJB proposes re-introduction of FRA and FCO with A359, but CDG was never in that equation. That goes to show there is not much French in the PH unlike Germans, who according to statistics were the second largest visitor in the country after the Brits prior to covid.

[Solblanc]

Arianespace wrote

The last application PAL actually filed with EU airport AMS, FCO, CDG and FRA was made in 2013 with A343 at the time of RSA. Lucky for them, they never got the slots they wanted. In 2018 JJB proposes re-introduction of FRA and FCO with A359, but CDG was never in that equation. That goes to show there is not much French in the PH unlike Germans, who according to statistics were the second largest visitor in the country after the Brits prior to covid.

AMS is slot restricted. CDG showed the highest fares next to LHR, but its traffic was less than FCO.

The biggest market in Europe is really LHR, but without a partner, LHR is not easy for connections, especially since it has always been outside the Schengen zone, so Filipino Schengen permanent residents can’t self-connect in the UK.

PAL’s model of catering to diaspora isn’t going to fly in Europe because the diaspora is so very fragmented. Highest concentrations are in the UK and Italy. Their other model of maintaining independence from alliances also isn’t going to do them any favors. Once they land in a city, they need a local partner that will carry connecting traffic at reasonable rates. The airline that has historically been the friendliest with them is KLM, but AMS has no slots and their government is now discouraging connecting traffic for environmental reasons (what a nice first-world problem to have). You’ve mentioned before that PAL has no love lost with BA, and no other airline has a good short-haul network out of LHR. FCO and MXP have no strong airlines of their own; ITA got rid of Alitalia’s MXP hub, and it remains to be seen if Lufthansa will be able to complete their purchase of ITA. Speaking of the Germans, good luck to PAL if they can get slots in FRA after the T3 incident. MUC is a big LH hub, but it doesn’t have the same local traffic as the UK or Italy. MAD is too far and is verging on ULH.

That leaves CDG. It would work if AF was willing to partner with PAL, if they got decent slots, and if there was an appropriate aircraft to fly it with.

The A359 was always gonna be a little too much for Europe. It’s better off with a 789. Because of Manila’s location, they’d have to settle for local traffic as they can’t draw 6th freedom traffic from within Southeast Asia, and their schedules don’t really allow for convenient transfers to Australia (which they can’t even serve with their own equipment anymore even). Add to this the Chinese airlines starting to dump capacity again and depressing fares; Europe really doesn’t seem very attractive.

If they wanna dip their toes in, they could always get an A321XLR and make a one-stop via the Middle East where they have 5th freedom traffic rights. But for the foreseeable future, they definitely won’t have a plane that can make Europe profitable

[Arianespace]

To be brutally frank about it, Europe operations was never in the black side of the balance sheet, far from it. From the time of PAL first foray to the skies in 1947 to the last foray in the 90s. It was always a "prestige" route.

A prestige route is a destination regarded  as means of promoting national prestige, and heritage of the country, which in this case the Philippines Islands.

Many small nations are prepared then to see their airlines make losses while they fly on major air routes of the world to tell its people that our country exists on the map.

Unprofitable routes are justified on the grounds that it is important to carry the flag on them, thus the term "flag carrier". That policy was common to all airlines around the world at that time as few country has an airline to call their own. Singapore and Malaysia had it only in 1972, despite their claim that they were there in 1947. To hold that position is to claim that PANAM was ours too. Singapore came to being only in 1965. See the prestige distinction?

Fact is, PAL still benefits the prestige of what the government brought to it, ie being the first airline in asia, and the first airline to fly across the pacific.  

Few also knew about this fact, PAL was the first airline in Asia under private Filipino hands, but because it was bought by the government multiple times in the past, ie 1957 and 1974, that prestige fizzles out as another government airline. That distinction ceased in 1992, and has been a true "Private airline" up to now. No airline in Asia Pacific is truly private owned except PAL. And that is another prestige to the Filipinos. But I guess no PAL folks knows about it.

By the way, I learned these things from the former Finance Secretary at a time when he was still heading PAL. He was also the same person that said no to government bailout forcing it to stand on their own. Look where they are now.

[Solblanc]

Indeed, nowadays it’s about playing to one’s strengths. The likes of TG and MH can sustain multiple frequencies to LHR, but the USA was always a prestige route for them. They can only wish to have the network that PAL has in North America.

[PAL 747]

Mmm, I sort of disagree with the "Europe is a prestige route" argument. Back in the day, the Europe flights were optimally timed to connect with Australia. Back in the 60s-80s, there was European migration and tourism to Australia. PAL was one of the players on the "Kangaroo Route" before the ME3, TK or Chinese airlines. I haven't even mentioned the tourists and OFWs to/from Europe.

https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/pr7804.htm
https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/pr80.htm

The perfect "prestige route" example for PAL would be its plans of flying to Latin America in the 1950s. PAL was supposed to fly to Mexico City in 1954 but was stopped by the Americans at the last minute. An actual PAL route that would be considered "prestige" would have to be the short-lived 1985-6 Manila-Karachi-Dubai-Cairo 2x a week A300 service. I don't think there were traffic rights DXB-CAI vv. so that was definetely a money burner especially at that time. Didn't make sense since Egyptair was already flying to MNL twice a week as a stopover to Tokyo (If you wanted dirt cheap tickets to Tokyo or Bangkok back then, you either flew on Egyptair or Pakistan International Airlines).

PAL was serving a market with demand & room for healthy competition. My definition of a prestige route would be maintaining a route with almost zero passenger & cargo demand. Like an Air Koryo Pyongyang-New York/JFK flight. Aeroflot was the king of prestige routes.

https://www.departedflights.com/SVO80intro.html
https://www.departedflights.com/SVO96intro.html

Don't forget, there was a certain wife/mother of 2 presidents who would "commandeer" PAL jets so she can go shopping all over the world. Taking out 1 plane (usually the DC-10) not because of technical reasons will definetely cause scheduling issues. And PAL became government-owned in 1977 because Benigno Toda (PAL's owner) had the balls to give the Marcoses a bill for all flights Imelda took. I actually have a xeroxed copy of PAL's history until 1991 from PAL's employee newsletter. It actually had a breakdown of all the years PAL was profitable. PAL really started bleeding money from 1980.

Pre-1998, with the exception of LHR, PAL had night departures from MNL to FRA & CDG. It was still well-timed for Australia flights.

https://www.departedflights.com/FRA96intro.html
https://www.departedflights.com/CDG96intro.html

Today, it's super hard and expensive to get morning arrival slots into Heathrow (if a PAL flight leaves MNL at night). My guess it's just as hard for the other Euro hubs. I think before COVID, PAL had an early morning SYD-MNL flight so it can connect to Heathrow.

It's funny that after all the BAC 1-11 jets (awesome plane BTW) PAL bought in the 60s & 70s, they only managed to get slots to Gatwick when they finally returned to London in 1980.

Just thinking out of the box: has PAL considered using its metal to Istanbul and tying up with Turkish Airlines? TK flies to more European destinations than the ME3. Thai has a daily flight to IST (granted they are both Star members).

I believe PAL can make Europe work if it has the right planes, slot times AND a good hub. NAIA may have been an tolerable airport to transit in 1988, but it is TOO small today!

Fun tidbit: to make the layover bearable, PAL pre-1998 used to offer free tours to Manila (probably to Intramuros & Luneta) to transit passengers for more than 6 hours. It was advertised on Mabuhay Magazine.

[Solblanc]

PAL 747 wrote

Mmm, I sort of disagree with the "Europe is a prestige route" argument. Back in the day, the Europe flights were optimally timed to connect with Australia. Back in the 60s-80s, there was European migration and tourism to Australia. PAL was one of the players on the "Kangaroo Route" before the ME3, TK or Chinese airlines. I haven't even mentioned the tourists and OFWs to/from Europe.

https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/pr7804.htm
https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/pr80.htm

The perfect "prestige route" example for PAL would be its plans of flying to Latin America in the 1950s. PAL was supposed to fly to Mexico City in 1954 but was stopped by the Americans at the last minute. An actual PAL route that would be considered "prestige" would have to be the short-lived 1985-6 Manila-Karachi-Dubai-Cairo 2x a week A300 service. I don't think there were traffic rights DXB-CAI vv. so that was definetely a money burner especially at that time. Didn't make sense since Egyptair was already flying to MNL twice a week as a stopover to Tokyo (If you wanted dirt cheap tickets to Tokyo or Bangkok back then, you either flew on Egyptair or Pakistan International Airlines).

PAL was serving a market with demand & room for healthy competition. My definition of a prestige route would be maintaining a route with almost zero passenger & cargo demand. Like an Air Koryo Pyongyang-New York/JFK flight. Aeroflot was the king of prestige routes.

https://www.departedflights.com/SVO80intro.html
https://www.departedflights.com/SVO96intro.html

Don't forget, there was a certain wife/mother of 2 presidents who would "commandeer" PAL jets so she can go shopping all over the world. Taking out 1 plane (usually the DC-10) not because of technical reasons will definetely cause scheduling issues. And PAL became government-owned in 1977 because Benigno Toda (PAL's owner) had the balls to give the Marcoses a bill for all flights Imelda took. I actually have a xeroxed copy of PAL's history until 1991 from PAL's employee newsletter. It actually had a breakdown of all the years PAL was profitable. PAL really started bleeding money from 1980.

Pre-1998, with the exception of LHR, PAL had night departures from MNL to FRA & CDG. It was still well-timed for Australia flights.

https://www.departedflights.com/FRA96intro.html
https://www.departedflights.com/CDG96intro.html

Today, it's super hard and expensive to get morning arrival slots into Heathrow (if a PAL flight leaves MNL at night). My guess it's just as hard for the other Euro hubs. I think before COVID, PAL had an early morning SYD-MNL flight so it can connect to Heathrow.

It's funny that after all the BAC 1-11 jets (awesome plane BTW) PAL bought in the 60s & 70s, they only managed to get slots to Gatwick when they finally returned to London in 1980.

Just thinking out of the box: has PAL considered using its metal to Istanbul and tying up with Turkish Airlines? TK flies to more European destinations than the ME3. Thai has a daily flight to IST (granted they are both Star members).

I believe PAL can make Europe work if it has the right planes, slot times AND a good hub. NAIA may have been an tolerable airport to transit in 1988, but it is TOO small today!

Fun tidbit: to make the layover bearable, PAL pre-1998 used to offer free tours to Manila (probably to Intramuros & Luneta) to transit passengers for more than 6 hours. It was advertised on Mabuhay Magazine.

You said it yourself. PAL does not have the right planes, does not have slots, and does not have a good hub.

Also, on the Australia side, once daily flights from Manila only connect well on one leg of the kangaroo route. You need double daily services to make good connections work, and aside from overcapacity, it would go beyond existing entitlements in the current ASA with Australia.

Istanbul is a non-starter as there are less than 10k Filipinos in Turkey, and the Turkish economy isn’t doing well right now.

When PAL served the kangaroo route back in the 80s, no airline had consistent service. Today, so many airlines provide seamless connections. Remember, as big as a travel market Australia is, they only have a population of 26 million. There are only so many travelers you can poach from EK, QR, CX, and SQ.

Nobody is saying that there isn’t traffic between the Philippines and Europe, but because it’s so spread out, other airlines serve the market more effectively.

[PAL 747]

You said it yourself. PAL does not have the right planes, does not have slots, and does not have a good hub.

Also, on the Australia side, once daily flights from Manila only connect well on one leg of the kangaroo route. You need double daily services to make good connections work, and aside from overcapacity, it would go beyond existing entitlements in the current ASA with Australia.

Istanbul is a non-starter as there are less than 10k Filipinos in Turkey, and the Turkish economy isn’t doing well right now.

When PAL served the kangaroo route back in the 80s, no airline had consistent service. Today, so many airlines provide seamless connections. Remember, as big as a travel market Australia is, they only have a population of 26 million. There are only so many travelers you can poach from EK, QR, CX, and SQ.

Nobody is saying that there isn’t traffic between the Philippines and Europe, but because it’s so spread out, other airlines serve the market more effectively.


This is why I love reading (and decided to write) in this forum. You learn something new! When is the ASA with Australia due for review?

I forgot about Qantas' Project Sunrise where the goal is to launch non-stop flights to Europe from Sydney!

Regarding Istanbul, I was dreaming of the long-shot possibility of getting codeshare flights to Europe & beyond from Istanbul with Turkish Airlines.  Kind of like how Garuda/Malaysia/JAL are flying to Doha and codesharing with certain Qatar Airways flights out of DOH.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2024/02/08/garuda-indonesia-to-launch-doha-route/

As time passes, PAL not being a member of an alliance is showing its limits.

[Arianespace]

PAL 747 wrote

Mmm, I sort of disagree with the "Europe is a prestige route" argument. Back in the day, the Europe flights were optimally timed to connect with Australia. Back in the 60s-80s, there was European migration and tourism to Australia. PAL was one of the players on the "Kangaroo Route" before the ME3, TK or Chinese airlines. I haven't even mentioned the tourists and OFWs to/from Europe.

The perfect "prestige route" example for PAL would be its plans of flying to Latin America in the 1950s. PAL was supposed to fly to Mexico City in 1954 but was stopped by the Americans at the last minute. An actual PAL route that would be considered "prestige" would have to be the short-lived 1985-6 Manila-Karachi-Dubai-Cairo 2x a week A300 service. I don't think there were traffic rights DXB-CAI vv. so that was definetely a money burner especially at that time. Didn't make sense since Egyptair was already flying to MNL twice a week as a stopover to Tokyo (If you wanted dirt cheap tickets to Tokyo or Bangkok back then, you either flew on Egyptair or Pakistan International Airlines).

Your views are always welcome, as we take great pleasure in reading arguments on the other side.

Maybe perhaps you may want to read Airline Management by W.S. Barry, who discusses about National Prestige to airlines, and Government Subsidies to National Airlines, to sway your views a little. Its an old book from 1965 republished in 2018. It's a nice read. Basically gives you idea how the airline business was run then.

Europe as a destination was a product of government policy to introduce the Philippines to the world after it was granted independence by the United States in 1946. When ICAO was ratified in 1947, the government entered numerous Air Services Agreement with European countries. It also bought planes to show this national prestige as a new independent State. To countries that matter most. A thing that you can't do when your Australia, Singapore or Hong Kong.

One of these agreements was that of Great Britain and its colonies, effective Jan 1 1948, which gave rise to Kangaroo route. While the route is famous via Singapore flown by BOAC and Qantas, PAL flew it via Manila towards the heart of the empire. Yes, they flew the Kangaroo route as early as 1948 from London to Sydney. Naturally, the route was perfectly timed to connect from both ends. Karachi and Cairo was flown too in 1948, as well as Dhahran (now Dammam) which survives to this date, thanks to the OFW market.



While on balance sheet, the accounts look fine and profitable, the subsidy injected by government, ie post, weather, tourism, and transport,  to tilt balance of account window dressed what was reality. But it served the purpose at that time. Until it wasn't justifiable already that it was ordered stop on March 30, 1954. Selling all the DC-6 with it.

Running the prestige route gave PAL the 9th largest airliner in the world tag in terms of passenger miles, as it was computed then, and the most efficient airliner in 1949 spanning flight services to 2/3 of the world. I'm not the one saying that. PAL does.



So you see, it served its purpose well. As was intended. To have that small country in the Far East known throughout the world. And it did.

[PAL 747]

Testing

[PAL 747]

I have this little book called "Airlines of Asia Since 1920" by R.E.G. Davies. There are several chapters on Philippine aviation. If anyone is interested in reading or want to know more about Asian aviation, I can post pics if that is allowed. Here's the 1st 2 pages...



UPDATE: Oops. That image was small. Let me try the medium one. I took it with smartphone.

[PAL 747]

Resized it with large. Looks a little better. If this is allowed and/or anyone is interested in reading chapters on Philippine or Asian civil aviation history, let me know and I can do a "Kwento ni Lola Basyang".

It's a little more reliable than what's on wikipedia. Haha.

[PAL 747]

Arianespace wrote

PAL 747 wrote

Your views are always welcome, as we take great pleasure in reading arguments on the other side.

Maybe perhaps you may want to read Airline Management by W.S. Barry, who discusses about National Prestige to airlines, and Government Subsidies to National Airlines, to sway your views a little. Its an old book from 1965 republished in 2018. It's a nice read. Basically gives you idea how the airline business was run then.

Europe as a destination was a product of government policy to introduce the Philippines to the world after it was granted independence by the United States in 1946. When ICAO was ratified in 1947, the government entered numerous Air Services Agreement with European countries. It also bought planes to show this national prestige as a new independent State. To countries that matter most. A thing that you can't do when your Australia, Singapore or Hong Kong.

One of these agreements was that of Great Britain and its colonies, effective Jan 1 1948, which gave rise to Kangaroo route. While the route is famous via Singapore flown by BOAC and Qantas, PAL flew it via Manila towards the heart of the empire. Yes, they flew the Kangaroo route as early as 1948 from London to Sydney. Naturally, the route was perfectly timed to connect from both ends. Karachi and Cairo was flown too in 1948, as well as Dhahran (now Dammam) which survives to this date, thanks to the OFW market.



While on balance sheet, the accounts look fine and profitable, the subsidy injected by government, ie post, weather, tourism, and transport,  to tilt balance of account window dressed what was reality. But it served the purpose at that time. Until it wasn't justifiable already that it was ordered stop on March 30, 1954. Selling all the DC-6 with it.

Running the prestige route gave PAL the 9th largest airliner in the world tag in terms of passenger miles, as it was computed then, and the most efficient airliner in 1949 spanning flight services to 2/3 of the world. I'm not the one saying that. PAL does.



So you see, it served its purpose well. As was intended. To have that small country in the Far East known throughout the world. And it did.

I gotta check that book out. Thanks!

Just a correction: PAL didn't serve Oz 1947-1954. They planned to do it but was never launched until 1965.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb-vknsmDQk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oQ6UojolEw

Check out the IFE back in 1965 AND Luneta & Ayala Avenue!

[Arianespace]

PAL 747 wrote

Arianespace wrote

PAL 747 wrote

Just a correction: PAL didn't serve Oz 1947-1954. They planned to do it but was never launched until 1965.

I'll be damned. If books and print ads were saying otherwise in 1948 contrary to what is said in 1965, I am inclined to believe the former more. Its better than wiki and youtube. And airlines won't claim it if they did not. Looking at the ad in 1948 is like saying London and San Francisco was just publicity stunt. But its not.

It was sad the route was short lived all because of the racist policy in Australia at that time not allowing Filipinos there. But it doesn't mean that it did not happen. Learn who Lorenzo Gamboa was. Its a political thing. That's why you won't find it. Its a bad blip in our nations history with the oz.

This is the 1952 version of the ad. Australia isn't there anymore.



1965 is when they came back with a jet when Australia finally got the balls to drop the white Australia policy. Hope it helps

[PAL 747]

Looked through the book again. These are the years Asian airlines first flew into Sydney:

Air India: 1956-
Cathay Pacific: 1959-1961; 1973-
Philippine Airlines: 1965-
Malaysia-Singapore Airlines (now Singapore Airlines): 1967-
Garuda Indonesia: 1969-
Japan Airlines: 1969-
Thai Airways International: 1971-

Not surprised that Air India was the first Asian airline to Australia. They were something back in the day. They were the 1st Asian airline to use jets (B707 in 1960); they were the 1st Asian airline to fly into New York (1960). They were owned by the Tatas (kind of like the Ayalas) before the airline was nationalized in 1953; BUT the Tatas still managed the airline. From 1953-1980, the airline only lost money 3 times.